It's Tuesday, June 11th, at 13:45, and we are about to send a Zoom link to Rafaela Pimenta. The meeting was scheduled for 14:00, but, as is often the case in the world of football, you can never take anything for granted. The Brazilian agent had been in Bucharest on business for less than 24 hours and was about to board a flight to Germany for Euro 2024.
14:45: We are told that the call will finally start at 15:00 and that it will last thirty minutes, as Pimenta has an important appointment immediately afterwards. We kindly nod in agreement, before getting caught up in a discussion that is far too exciting to cut short after half an hour.
Pimenta speaks with ease as we at Flashscore listen attentively to the story of this woman with a grandiose career. The call could have gone on for another hour, with more "off the record" and endless anecdotes, but we had to cut it short. We'd like to thank Pimenta for giving us an extra 17 minutes of very rewarding interview time.
Hello Rafaela, it's a great honour to be able to talk to you. The major newspapers often present you as a 'shadow agent'. You have a degree in international law from Sao Paulo and have been immersed in the world of football for two decades. Meeting Mino Raiola (may he rest in peace) was a defining moment for you, and the start of a fruitful collaboration. Can you introduce yourself to shed some light on this 'shadow' that hangs over you and tell us about your beginnings, your story at the very start, before you met Raiola? How did the young Brazilian lawyer that you were manage to team up with an Italian-Dutch agent?
"Hello Pablo, thank you for your words. My background... It makes me smile when I look back because things happened a bit by chance...
"As you said, I have a law degree and, at the time, I was teaching international law in Brazil. Then, one day, a friend of mine invited me to work with him. This person wanted to get into football and he needed someone who knew about laws, contracts and everything to do with the legal aspect. And he said to me: I have to see a client, it's a foreign client, you can come with me and maybe we'll do something together. I'd just got out of university.
"So I went to the meeting and when I arrived I realised that it was a meeting with the company that belonged, at the time, to Rivaldo and Cesar Sampaio. They were in the process of setting up a football club and were trying to make transfers abroad. They had incipient agreements with Europeans.
"And among them was Mino (Raiola). That's where I met him. And I remember that Mino wanted to understand Brazilian football law. I introduced myself to him and started to explain, but he disputed everything I said. He'd say, 'No, it's not like that, but you can't do that and so on'. I then came to the conclusion that Mino knew Brazilian law - in his opinion - better than I did. So I withdrew, I left. A rather good decision, because it was because of this that Mino contacted me again.
"Almost a year later, he found me again, when I was working for the Brazilian government. I remember it like it was yesterday (laughs)... I was in Brasilia. My phone rang, it was an unknown number. I picked it up and he says, 'This is Raiola. I've been looking for you for months. I didn't have your phone. People didn't want to give it to me.'
"I asked him why he wanted to talk to me, as he knew Brazilian law so much better than I did (laughs). And he replied, 'No... because, in fact, you were the only one to say no to me. All the people I knew in Brazil said yes, yes, yes, it's fine, it's fine. That's how they got me to invest there. But since you said no, I was interested in working with you. Can you help me?'
"I said, 'Of course, I can help you, but only if you listen to me. If you don't want to listen, I can't do anything. I'm just a lawyer.' He agreed and we started working together. I told him, 'OK, there's nothing to worry about, except that I'm not free. I work for the state, and I'm not as totally available as you might like.'
"He told me that it would be from time to time that we could talk. I said, 'OK.' And that famous 'from time to time' came one fine Sunday. I was asleep when I got a call saying, 'Hello Rafaela, I'm transferring a player to Argentina. Can you go with him? Because it's too far for me...'
"I tell him it's complicated for me, that I've never done a transfer before. And then he said to me, 'Everything's done, don't worry. You just have to go with the player, check that everything is OK, that the agreement is in place and that everything is good.'
"I agreed, I travelled with the player, we went to Argentina... And then I realised that nothing had been done. There was no agreement, there was no contract, there was everything to do. A guy was waiting for us at the airport, he wanted to tell us his story.
"So I called Mino to explain, he didn't believe it and finally I told him I was going to find a solution. Which I did. The player was transferred to Boca Juniors. And that was my first experience in the world of football, and I have to say it was extremely intense."
Quite an anecdote... Proof that everything happens very quickly in the world of football.
"Exactly!"
In an article published in Le Monde on September 9th, 2022, entitled 'Who is Rafaela Pimenta, Paul Pogba's lawyer?', the journalist wrote: 'Since Mino Raiola's death on April 30th, she has taken up the torch. Residing in Monaco, where the company founded by Raiola is based, Rafaela Pimenta likes discretion as much as her mentor loved exuberance. A polyglot - she speaks eight languages - she says little in the press and is not active on social networks.' Is discretion the first principle of your profession?
"Yes, because that's what I'm trained in, it's legal. With legal training comes the idea of discretion, confidentiality and client protection. That's what you're trained to do. And when you go into these professions, it's because you want to look after other people, to work in their interests. You have to have a defensive mindset.
"And so, yes, for me, the profession must have this side. For me, service providers - because that's what we are - must have this discretion as a watchword, it must be part of our profession. For example, if I go to see a dentist, I don't want him to expose my life to all his colleagues and to the whole world (laughs).
"I think that players have got used to being overexposed by their entourage. The people around them take up too much space and they want to put themselves forward too much. Except that's not good... The show belongs to the players.
"We, the agents, are there to ensure that things go as smoothly as possible for our player. We have to stay in the background. So, in my opinion, discretion is part of my job. After that, it's a job with a lot of media coverage. There's a lot of curiosity... And that can also interest us. Bringing certain situations to light for the good of our clients, for example."
Did you already have this discretion in you, or is it something you picked up during your studies or your professional experience?
"When you have Mino next to you (laughs)... I don't know whether I already had it in me or not. I didn't have any real professional experience before. My other experience was when I was a teacher. And teachers talk all the time (laughs)!
"After that, when I was in government, it was a different kind of job. When I moved into football, it was my first professional experience in this environment, and I had to learn quickly. Even so, it was clear from my university education that this principle was going to follow me in my career at some point."
In 2022, you took over the Erling Haaland case...
"(She cuts in) That's not true... We know the context. Earlier, it was said that the company was founded by Mino (Raiola). But that's not true. We both set it up. We wrote the company documents together. I find that a bit macho.
"As you know, I'm very committed to feminism and, in my opinion, this should be highlighted. We wrote the company's articles of association together, hand in hand. Once again, you will never find a person with so much respect and admiration for him. It doesn't exist. But, in our case, it's important to stress that it wasn't the man who did it all. Because that's not the case. When you do something together, I think it's important to highlight it.
"As a woman, I have a duty to set the record straight on this. And it's also important because, in my opinion, football can enable women to emancipate themselves. Women have a right to their own space in this environment."
A good thing done...
"Yes, I thought it was important to clarify that point."
Coming back to Haaland's transfer to Manchester City, can you tell us about the background to it or any particular anecdote?
"I can't... And here I want to insist on discretion. Why did I interrupt you just before? I did it on purpose. Haaland has been our customer for years and years. We were the ones who made the transfer to Borussia Dortmund. And, from the moment Mino was no longer there, it was as if, from one day to the next, I had to take care of him.
"But no, that's not how it happened. Mino and I always did everything together. I'm not saying this for the glory or the compliments. It's just to say, let's also be careful when there's a woman working. Let's ask ourselves what her role and importance is.
"That's why I interrupted you earlier. Now, to talk about the transfer, I don't think this story belongs to me. It belongs to Erling Haaland. It belongs to Manchester City. I was there as an advisor. If I tell you about the transfer, perhaps I'm going to tell you something that doesn't belong to me.
"So I can give you my perspective, my experience and what affected me. For example, when we were carrying out this transfer, it was a very difficult time for me... Very complicated because Mino wasn't there. All the transfers I've made in my life I've made with Mino.
"What I'm about to tell you is sad. Because, from my perspective, the Haaland transfer tasted bittersweet. In other words, sweet and bitter at the same time. And why was that? Because Mino wasn't there. And I would have loved to have been with him at that moment, at the time of the transfer, at the time of the signing and especially at the time of Haaland's first match. That match was a moment of joy for everyone. But personally, I had tears in my eyes because I was thinking about Mino.
"And I can say the same thing about Paul (Pogba)'s transfer to Juventus. The day Paul signed for the Old Lady, I started crying. Because there was the whole Juve club, there was Paul, his family, myself... but Mino was missing. Those were complicated times."
Today, you are the most influential agent in the world of football. In 2022, you were voted Best Player's Agent by Tuttosport (thanks to the transfers of Erling, Paul and Matthijs de Ligt). On October 21st 2022, the Italian daily referred to you as 'the undisputed queen of the transfer market.' It must have been a long road to get there...
"I don't see myself like that, but I'd like to thank you. When I look back, I realise that it's been a long road... Very long and very short at the same time. It went by so fast (laughs)... How could it go by so fast?
"And to come back to the question, at the beginning, it was very difficult to get people to listen to us. I remember how many hours we spent working. Hours of sacrifice. At the time, Italian football was the best in the world. And Mino and I often went to a bar close to the AC Milan facilities. We knew that a few times a day, people like Galliani would come to this bar to drink their coffee. And as you know, Italian coffees are short. You come and you go (laughs)!
"So we'd go there, we'd go all the way to Milan to sit in this bar and wait for our chance. And if these people happened to pass by, which lasted a fraction of a second, we had to turn our 'hello' into an opportunity to be received and listened to.
"That's from the point of view of our society, but there's also the point of view of women. Today, women find it hard to get men to listen to them in our business. But it used to be worse. So it's also been a long road in that sense, to be respected, to be listened to, to be heard...
"For example, when I said something, people would go to Mino to try and do things differently. It took a long time in that sense too. And it's also been short in the sense that we've had so many good moments, moments of joy, moments of professional and personal success..."
I didn't use the word 'influential' by chance - other media define you as 'powerful'. You said in Téléfoot, on February 19th 2023, that the word 'powerful' was not adequate to define you. For you, it's the player before the agent: 'There are no powerful agents, there are powerful players', you said.
"I said that on purpose that day, because I'd like to see the role of the agent reframed. Because if we do that, we're going to elevate the agent's profession. For me, the agent must be a support for his client.
"As I said earlier, we are not the main players in this game. You can't take power away from the players. And the players have to understand that the power is theirs. And when a player uses his power and his voice, football becomes a tool, a means of changing many things from the point of view of society.
"If we know how to use that, and the players do too, we can go a long way. I don't like it when agents want to control everything. That turns into manipulation. I don't like that, because there can be weak players.
"Our mission as agents is also to strengthen the position and role of players so that they can be independent. I want the players to want to work with us because they need to.
"What I like is when there is a real human relationship between the player and the agent. And, above all, what I try to avoid at all costs is a relationship of dependency between the player and the agent. When the former may not know what's going on with his money or his career. To my mind, that is inconceivable."
Tell us about a typical week for Rafaela Pimenta.
"I wish I could tell you one (laughs)... If I had a typical week, I'd be delighted to tell you about it! Right now, I'm in Bucharest, I arrived at three in the morning last night, and I'm going to catch another flight this evening because there's the opening of the Euros in Munich...
"So, in a typical week, we always have very good intentions... We start the week with very good intentions! We have a plan, we have an agenda, we organise our clothes, we travel... We leave when it's hot, we arrive when it's cold (laughs).
"I've lost count of the number of times I've had to buy a jumper at the airport, thinking that where I'm going it's going to be warm, and in the end, it's very cold. The last jumper I bought was last week, and it said 'Amsterdam' on it!
"So there's no such thing as a typical week in this business. You have to be flexible and your team has to be flexible because otherwise, you're going to drive everyone crazy. And, as well as being flexible, you need to be light-hearted. I think it's a question of personality.
"Some people are able to take the unexpected in their stride. And there are people for whom it's too much to handle. So you have to be really open to not having a typical week, eating what you can, eating at the airport, being a real fan of triangle sandwiches. I know them all (laughs)!
"You have to understand that things aren't going to turn out the way you planned beforehand. I've also got into the habit of having a big suitcase so that I never run out of anything and so that I have a sense of balance, because if you don't, you go crazy."
As a woman, and knowing how the world of football works, what are the keys to making your mark?
"First of all, you have to be yourself. Before, I used to think a lot about how I should dress, whether I'd get more respect if I dressed like that... It's obvious that there's always a certain way of dressing at work, as a general rule. But you shouldn't get too carried away... If you get too carried away, you won't be seen as a man, because you're not a man.
"If I like a manicure, I have to have a manicure. If you like red nails, you do it, because, in my opinion, that's not what determines whether you're respected or not. For me, respect comes when you know how to speak, when you know how to position yourself, when you're serious, when you're honest and when you know where you stand.
"If I'm there for a player, I'm there for that player and nothing else. I'm not here to make clubs like me either. I hope the clubs like me, but above all I'm there to represent my client. When we say no to a club, it's not because we want to say no. We always have a reason, and that reason comes from our client. We always have a reason, and that reason comes from our client. People who are serious about football understand that very well. You have to know how to say no and you have to know how to say yes at the right moment.
"After that, every day is a battle. You never know what's going to happen. There are days when you meet people who think that women can't work in football... Others think that it's a job like any other. So we have to be prepared, we have to be trained.
"I have a recent anecdote. I had an appointment in a country where I spoke the language but had little command of the written word. So I decided to go to the appointment with a local lawyer by my side, in case I had missed anything.
"Everything went well and at the end of the meeting, on the other side of the table, these people said to the lawyer who was with me, 'You've really prepared her well for the football world, you know?' They didn't mean to insult me, but it was still a very inappropriate remark.
"The lawyer in question turned red because the remark was out of place, but also because these people had thought he had the last word in front of me... That's a hell of a lack of respect. Basically, you're assuming that a woman can't know football? Even when you try to be nice, it can quickly turn into machismo, unfortunately."
You agreed to be in the documentary about Paul Pogba, The Pogmentary, which was released in June 2022. Talking about you, the French midfielder says: 'She takes care of me like her child, so I consider her my second mum. She's my business mum'. And you say: 'When he won the World Cup, when he was nominated for the Ballon d'Or, when his son was born or when he met his wife, I was there every time'. Is it rewarding to be considered as a second mum?
"It doesn't matter who it comes from. If it's someone who loves you very much, whom you also appreciate, and they offer you words like that, it's a great honour. And it's a great pleasure."
As you know, the 2018 World Champion has been involved in two huge affairs in recent years. And, as his second mum, you are the person best placed to respond to these. The first was the one with his brother, where you managed this thorny case behind the scenes. My question is this: football, its world, the people around you, the environment, etc., is all about the players. When fame comes their way, isn't the first piece of advice you should give a footballer to be very careful with it?
"No, that's not the first piece of advice you should give someone, because it should never be something negative, something that warns... I think the world is made up of good and bad people. So the first piece of advice you have to give a footballer is to work like crazy to succeed because it's not easy. Success is a huge amount of work every day, and it's going to take all your life and all your energy.
"You have to sleep with the ball! Do you really want to do it? If so, then do it! And you have to do it from the heart, not for the money. People don't like it when I say that, but I've never met a great champion who looked for money before sporting success. Medals, cups... for a football player, that's more important than money. So my first piece of advice is that you have to follow your heart and go after your dream. You have to try to get to the top, for those who can.
"Then, yes, the next piece of advice is to be careful in life, obviously, you have to be careful. It's a business that attracts a lot of profiteers, a business that attracts a lot of people who don't want to do anything other than live around a player.
"And there's a big risk that this type of people, those who gravitate towards the world of football, are people who only want to make the player believe that he's the best, that he's always right, that he's the most beautiful, that he can do whatever he wants... So you must never lose touch with reality. In a way, it's like living under the watchful eye of Big Brother. And if you're not careful, you lose your sense of reality. Sometimes, those around us will constantly play things down... Because they want you to be the one paying for dinner."
Paul Pogba was handed a four-year suspension for anti-doping offences on February 29th. The French midfielder (30) tested positive for testosterone on August 10th, 2023. You said: 'Paul never wanted to break the rules'. Can you explain to the world who Paul Pogba is and just how this player never wanted to break the rules?
"When I said that, it was an ad hoc answer specific to the context of a question. Out of respect for Paul and the authorities who are in charge of clarifying everything that's going on, I prefer not to add anything. Because as a lawyer, I understand that when you're in the position of managing a case or being the judge, it's not good when there are rumours that interfere with the debate.
"The best thing you can do, if you want something good for Paul, if you love him very much like I do, is to say nothing. Say nothing and let things become clearer over time."
Getting back to you, do you see yourself as an example of success for anyone wanting to get into football?
"I try to do my best every day. And if that can inspire and motivate those who listen to me or read me, that would be great."
Can you give a few life tips to people who want to get into football professionally?
"It's not a profession in which you succeed overnight. If people think they're going to become rich, they're just fantasising... But it's not that simple, because you travel 300 days a year, arriving at 7am and leaving at 8pm. You lose a lot of time with your family and loved ones. So, prepare yourself, prepare yourself to know football, to know the laws, the regulations, to speak as many languages as possible.
"And I have the impression that people think that being an agent is the same as being a lawyer, but it's not. You need to know about physiology, nutrition and psychology, you need to know how a championship works and the rules of the game. Knowing the law is not enough. And you have to be passionate and want to learn something new every day.
"I've been doing this job for 30 years now and as soon as I can, I take new courses. At the moment, for example, I'm reading a book by a psychologist who is talking for the first time about the changes that have taken place in the brains of teenagers who have grown up in today's digital world, after gathering a huge amount of data. Why do I want to understand the mentality of a teenager? Because it's the teenager who's going to watch football and it's the teenager who's going to become the football player of tomorrow.
"So you have to learn things that go beyond football. Then there are rules to follow. There are rules to respect. The law is there to be followed, including tax laws. We're not here to break the rules. Once we understand that we have to do things properly, in the right order, by being well prepared, and by being better trained, we'll be good advisers and we'll elevate the profession."
In your opinion, what is the main flaw in football agents at the moment?
"The main flaw is when the agent thinks he can do everything, when in fact he can't, because he doesn't know everything. And his client needs several types of advice. And you mustn't be afraid to open the door to other advisers. Because I'm not a financial adviser, for example. However, my obligation is to help them choose the right person for their financial needs. We have a network and we have experience, we can introduce 3-4 people, so we can help them make decisions."
What's your biggest flaw?
"Perhaps the biggest one is... (she thinks...). I can think of a thousand (laughs). I try too hard to be perfect. In Brazil, they say that the perfect is the enemy of the good. Sometimes you just have to do things well, rather than trying to do them perfectly.
"But sometimes that holds me back because I'm too demanding of myself when all I have to do is accept things as they are, both with my team and with the players. You do what you can."
And the last one, because the fans of City, Real Madrid, Barcelona and the other big clubs want to know. You also told Téléfoot that Erling Haaland was worth €1 billion. But there are rumours that he has a release clause... I'm not going to ask you to confirm that. But I would like to ask you this: Is Erling Haaland a fantastic opportunity for the clubs who could afford him and for those who can offer him a sporting project worthy of his level?
"When I said that this amount corresponded to 'his value', I wasn't talking about his 'transfer value'. I was referring to the value of a top player at that age, with enormous room for improvement - and when I said that, he hadn't even done the treble - a player who finished as top scorer in the Premier League despite being injured for two months... He's a player with great potential.
"What do I see when I make this estimate? I see all the financial considerations that revolve around him, even though he's a serious player who works hard, is organised, focused and never gets lost. He's been at Manchester City for two years now and there's never been any gossip about him... His profile represents a huge value in the eyes of sponsors and clubs, as well as in terms of shirt sales and media exposure.
"And all that, put together: ticket sales, TV rights, everything Erling will earn over the course of his career, I'm convinced it will exceed a billion."
Finally, do you think a player like him should be a 'one-club man'?
"I don't know, but I think the Erling Haaland project is one that will last over time, over the next few years. It will also depend on trends in football. In any case, one thing is certain today: Erling Haaland feels at home at Manchester City! He is 1000 per cent committed to the City project and is already looking forward to the new season with the club."
Thank you very much!
"Thank you very much, I hope it went well."
